I guess I might feel the same way as these sheltered folk if I weren't gay. But anger is a totally legitimate thing to feel when you grow up and realize you will never be allowed to celebrate a marriage or build a family like your parents or siblings. It is totally legitimate when your emotional core is constantly ridiculed, demeaned and even treated as a sickness or a sin. It became a necessity when hundreds of thousands died while others looked on, or persecuted the sick with segregation or disdain, or blamed them for their disease. It is totally understandable when even now, after living in this country for 24 years, with a family and a home, I have to seek a waiver from the government every year to allow me to stay in this country because I have HIV, and only people married to a member of the opposite sex are treated like human beings if immigrants. The government denies you family, dignity and even a secure home - and you are never supposed to feel anger?Sullivan IS these sheltered folk.
I've said that Sullivan's saving grace is that he understands issues related to being gay. However, putting that singular issue to the side, he's carried the Conservative banner with pride.
He still doesn't realize that the gay issue that he understands so well applies to the rest of the political debate as well.
It's all the same issue.
/update
Further evidence that the Loon style of Conservatism is dying;
Though John McCain won't attend this weekend's "national conversation" convention of Log Cabin Republicans in San Diego, he has asked Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, a gay rights supporter, to be his surrogate.Suck on that giant wang Doug.. you fucking freak.
"We were scheduled to speak at the convention and were asked by McCain campaign to speak on their behalf since they can't attend, and we said no problem," a senior aide to Schwarzenegger said last night. "So Governor Schwarzenegger will talk about the future of the Republican Party and will also talk about McCain."
And, in a further sign that McCain does not consider gay Republicans to be an expendable part of the Republican coalition, he plans to meet soon with executives of the Log Cabin Republicans, people with knowledge of the meetings said.
What are they going to do when they no longer have gays to hate? I guess there's always the Mexicans.
Loon style Conservatism always has to have religion, and religion always has to have a target. It's fun to watch it disintegrate. Maybe this was Karl Rove's master plan all along - rumor (and it's just a rumor) is that he's bi anyway.. Rove isn't religious, but used and abused them.. and ultimately exposed them for the hateful bitches that they are.. and it's advancing our cause better than we could dream of doing on our own.
Maybe he meant to do that.
/update 2
Sullivan again in another post;
A sad day for Catholic education, when a reasonable, extremely well-educated, respectful lecturer on morality and homosexuality is barred from even engaging in a debate on a Catholic campus. I've made forceful arguments and enjoyed really stimulating discussions over the years at Notre Dame, Boston College, Marquette, Fordham, and many other places of Catholic learning. When will the church realize that allowing the truth to emerge from reason is not a threat to God or the church? Why are we so afraid of the truth?Hello? Sully? Since when does religion have anything to do with "truth"? Why do you react with surprise at the decisions made at religious colleges?
This is why I want organized religion gone from this planet. Sullivan looks on with perplexed, cocked eye-brow... wondering why they feel the need to exclude contradictory arguments from the debate.
Religion and the Conservative movement, ultimately, is one and the same. This is why Doug deletes and bans all contradictory arguments, and why Jennifer is not really a Conservative.
I don't fully understand why, but people seem to think that political labels trancend time. It changes. When I was much younger, I had some views that would be classified, at the time, as Conservative. Those ideas are now Liberal. If the label doesn't fit anymore, you wear a new label. This is why I asked Jennifer to rebuild her political philosophy, because I'm sure that when she's done, she'll call herself a liberal. I might just have to make a reasoned argument on a few issues to get her to cross that tipping point, but I have no doubt that I can do that.
The whole "gay rights" issue is just an example. I have absolutely no doubt that I could persuade her to support equality under the law, and in fact, reject the traditional views of religious intolerance. I have no doubt at all. At her core, she's a highly emotional person - and she internalizes the pain of others. When she sees the real emotional agony that religion causes, she'll reject it.
Most normal human beings are highly emotional as well. That's why "gay rights" or the "gay agenda" will eventually disapear because once we're all treated, and thought of equally, there will be no agenda. It'll be done.
Sullivan keeps flailing with the political labels.. and keeps whining that Conservatism isn't really "Conservatism" anymore.. It's not, and so instead of trying to reclaim the label, he needs to look at one that actually fits.
7 comments:
Interesting. You claim I ban all contradictory comments, but you ban LBM - - - what's the difference?
Hey, I have an open mind and am quite looking forward to it.
Gay rights is an issue that I have thought a lot about, ever since that video of "tolerance" was shown at a local school. I had a problem with that because a school is not where children should be getting their ideals, values or opinions. It is a parents job, but that is another issue entirely.
I have no problem with gays getting the same rights as non-gays. Maybe that isn't Conservative, I really don't know. I just know how I feel!
I don't "religiously" agree with it, but that doesn't mean that I think that you or anyone else is less of a person and should be denied the same rights. I have a friend that is a lesbian and I don't think of her any differently than I do my other friends. Her lifestlyle is different, yes, but who am I to say she doesn't deserve the same respect, rights and privileges that we all have, and too many take for granted.
I do feel that it should be a civil union rather than a marriage because I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
[When she sees the real emotional agony that religion causes, she'll reject it.]
Without a doubt. My values teach me to love, not hate. I would be no better than Fred Phelps if I put someone down or wished harn, etc for having a different lifestyle than mine!!
This will be good to write a post about.. but I'll just say one thing.
It's not a "lifestyle" any more than you being hetero is a "lifestyle". I suppose you may have meant it in a different way, but the right often uses that word because it implies that there is a choice. Somebody could simply choose a different lifestyle, right?
It's actually just what a person is.. and they (we) feel absolutely normal (assuming they are well adjusted and aren't overwhelemed by guilt from others).
"Marriage" is just a term.. and I really don't care about terms. They are meaningless. What matter is what they represent.
There is not religious marriage in American law. It's all civil law - and it has nothing to do with religion. Each particular religion is more than welcome to define it they way they like.. heck the Mormons had an interesting definition for a long time.. But in terms of the law, you simply can't have one set of laws for one group, and another set of laws for another.
That's segregation.. and it's wrong. Everyone should be governed by the the same law.. and what you call it is irrelevant.
If you want those "tolerance" videos to not be shown.. the easiest way to do that is to just remove intolerance in the law.
In other words.. like I said in the post.. there will be no "gay agenda" once there is no discrimination in the law. There will be no need to show a "tolerance" video because everyone will just know that everyone is treated the same.
For what it's worth.. I don't think gender or orientation specific discussions should be held in public schools. They should teach sex ed like they did when I was in school. We called it "biology" class. heh
Really.. all they need to do is explain what STD's are.. how they are transmitted.. how they are prevented.. and call it a day. It's just a health education thing, and there doesn't need to be any discussions about sexuality at all.
I saw a poll from Florida that noted that a sizeable portion of the students in public school thought that doing 5 "shots" of Mountain Dew would prevent pregnancy.
That's a "abstinance only" state education program.
One other thing..
I do see where your thinking is going.. and I can appreciate it. I'm just never going to stop advocating for "gay rights" as long as there is discrimination in the law.. and general ignorance about what being gay is, and is like.
I saw some really awful shit in my lifetime.. quite a few people I knew died of AIDS.. quite a few treated like they were "sick", as Doug likes to put it.
I happen to think those that are as ignorant about the subject as Doug is are the "sick" ones..
Ultimately, this is yet another "liberal" view point that will win wide acceptance, as it is in many other western countries. Most European countries, as well as Canada have equal rights for everyone. Even the Israli army welcomes gays to serve openly - and they are some badass soldiers.
It will eventually happen here.. and I think much sooner than most realize.
I said more than one thing and probably don't have to write the post now.. heh
Okay, maybe lifestyle wasn't the right word. When I looked it up I got this definition and it didn't fit.
[A lifestyle is a characteristic bundle of behaviors that makes sense to both others and oneself in a given time and place, including social relations, consumption, entertainment, and dress.]
I don't agree with Doug that it is a choice though. It isn't a choice that I am straight, it is who I am. So why should it be any different with you.
["If you want those "tolerance" videos to not be shown.. the easiest way to do that is to just remove intolerance in the law."]
It should be removed in the law, but showing that video in school did nothing but piss off parents that felt it was their job to teach values.
And even if you do remove tolerance from the law, I really doubt that would change many opinions about being gay. There are too many that share Doug's opinion that you are "sick" and are not interested in anything but judging.
You said more than one thing, but it would probably be an interesting post too.
For the most part.. I don't care what people's opinions are.. as long as the law treats everyone the same. Doug is always going to have a problem, and that's fine. It's his loss..
If Doug tried to marry his wife in Virginia, in 1967, it would have been illegal.. due to anti-miscengeniation laws.. but he doesn't see any problem with preventing other people from getting married.. using the same exact arguments that the racists used to prevent inter-racial couples from getting married.
It's pretty ironic.
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