First.. the infidel lays the trap..
Tom said...Now the holy man responds by claiming I used a straw man argument. The logic here is priceless..
My belief more follows the thinking of deism.. but you really hit the nail on the head with the inconsistency in most modern religions.
After all, it's either true, or it's not, right? Those that fall in the middle just want the "feel good" part of religion without the finger pointing and condemnation that is required if you follow it quite literally.
That's why I was confused when there was a big uproar when Pat Robertson claimed that God caused Ariel Sharon’s stroke early this year. After all, Robertson was referring specifically to scripture and if you follow his reasoning, he is quite correct. Robertson wasn't trying to be a jerk, or anti-Semite. He was just literally referencing the Bible when he said that God smote Sharon.
He never should have apologized, because by apologizing, he was admitting that the scriptures were incorrect.
I have a certain amount of respect for the literalists, even though I think they are delusional.
Good example, the exact topic you bring up. Is belief in Jesus the only way to get to heaven?
Clearly, the majority of the population in the world disagrees with everyone else's view on the topic. For example, if you are a Christian and believe "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.", you also understand that the majority of the world's population disagrees with you. That's simple statistics. Every single religion in the world is a minority religion.
If you are Jewish, the majority of the world is not Jewish, therefore the majority of the world disagree with you. Same for Muslims, or Hindu's or any religion at all.
But, the interesting thing about the Christian orthodoxy is that if you really, really believe what you just wrote, this is a horribly bleak world we live in.
After all, I think we can agree that most people in the world are not Christians, and do not believe as you do. Therefore, the majority of the people that die each day in the world are not Christian. It follows, then, that the majority of the people that die each day are not "saved" and do not enter the "kingdom of heaven".
Ouch.. that's pretty bad.
I think it's wrong, but you are quite right in that if you do not believe that is true, then your entire faith crumbles. If a religion says "this is in fallible", yet is proven that is false, then the foundation of the entire religion is nothing more than a man made construct, dreamed up in order to centralize power and control... and that can't be the real basis of religion, can it?
Interesting that Paul warned against an enlightened thinking through the ages. It's as if he knew that some day, man would question the shape of the Earth, or the rotation of the solar system, or the evolution of mankind.
Because of this built in inflexibility to evolve thinking and philosophy, orthodox Christianity has condemned (or blessed depending on how you look at it) it's followers to static, two thousand year old thinking.
You are truly blessed to have picked the "right" religion, when the vast majority of the world did not.
2:39 PM
Mifflin Dove Jr. said...Anybody notice the horribly bad logic there?
You are making assumptions about me based on just a couple of blog entries. I did not say that people of other faiths are going to Hell or anything of the sort. What I do believe as a disciple of Jesus Christ is that anyone who enters into heaven does so by the grace of God in Christ. I am not in the position to decide who gets saved and who doesn't. I only point to the One who has declared that he is the way, the truth and the life. It is God's decision as to how to dispense mercy.
10:00 PM
Now, the wiley infidel springs the trap.
Tom said...The infidel's prey runs away with fingers in ears.
Oh I see.. that absolves you of being the one who is condemning people. Instead, you say that God condemns people because they didn't pick the same religion as you did. It wasn't, after all, your decision, right?
Very clever.
That's one of the reasons I could never be a Christian. It's pretty clear that fear is a good tactic to keep the masses in line. If the church can convince people that their mortal soul is at stake, it's a lot more likely they can control that soul. It's truly the most obvious con-game in the history of mankind.
Personally, if God really is like that. If you really have to be born in the right place, or pick the right religion in order to get into "heaven", then that's not the sort of God I want to have anything to do with.
Unfortunately, there are clergy in every world religion that believes in the absolutism of their religion much the way that you do. Their followers kill each other over it every single day.
It seems to me Bishop Jefferts-Schori point of view is a good step in trying to reduce the hostility, even if it's not theologically pure.
10:23 AM
Mifflin Dove Jr. said...On this particular topic, there really is no way to confuse their point of view. He is saying that anyone who does not belong to his religion is going to hell. When you call them to task for it, they run and hide and do the "you mock my beliefs!" routine. Well, yes.. I do mock them because it's the biggest pile of bullshit in the history of bullshit piles.
I am not going to fall into the trap of arguing with you in circles. Again, you are making assumptions about me without base. You can mock my beliefs if you want as that is your choice.
If you chose to lump me with "killers" because I take my faith seriously, that is your choice. You can call me whatever you like, but you won't convince me to renounce my beliefs and values. I do not condone killing in the name of any religion.
The tone of your comments indicates you must have some higher knowledge of the transcendent realms than I. If that is the case, then I do not dare to question your knowledge or beliefs. I'll simply defer to your greater wisdom on these matters and let you comment in the future without response.
They are not "holy". They are the evil the plagues this world. They are the con-artists that pit man against man, and have for thousands of years. They shroud themselves in the veil of "goodness", but the underlying evil is undeniable. If I had to classify it in terms of religious dogma, I'd call it Satanic, for surely only Satan could cause men to kill each other over faith for thousands of years, right?
Just because he doesn't "condone" violence, doesn't mean he isn't a part of the system that creates it. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions asshole.
Oh.. and one last thing (and I'm probably getting a tad mean here).. this is the episcopal priest..
It's so obvious I probably don't even have to say it.. but I will because it's fun..
That's about as obvious as Lance Bass.. I mean.. christ.. he's gotta be really, really gay. Explains a lot.
7 comments:
I was having a similar discussion with someone earlier, and they took the "I am not condemning you, God will be the judge" cop-out as well. What a load a shit that is!
1. You are a Christian.
2. You believe in the bible.
3. Your bible says that anyone not Christian (saved by Christ) will not go into heaven.
And yet you won't actually go so far as to come out and say it very often. I think you hit the nail on the head here Tom, they don't want the "bad feelings" associated with condemning someone, so they absolve themselves by going back to this line. But clearly they have to beleive it, it is part of their religion after all.
I think they also avoid talking about it, for the exact reasons you brought up. They don't want to think about how, regardless of which religion they are in, how most of the world disagrees with them. So even if one of them were correct, the rest are fucked over. And they don't want to either consider the possibility that they are wrong - I mean really, with all the reason they put into making sure they chose the correct religion *cough*beingbornintoit*cough*, how could they be wrong? And they don't want to consider that even if their religion is correct, then they believe in a God that will condemn 3/4 of the world to a fiery eternity. Kind of puts a damper on their peaceful, all-loving God.
Ya... but the important thing is that he does look really gay, right? I mean.. the whole fist under the chin thing.. straight guys don't do that! LOL
I just get the sense that there's something dark going on with him.. gut feeling lets say..
But ya.. they certainly don't like to talk about that topic. It makes them very uncomfortable when you pin them down like I like to do..
I think Adams has been hitting this stuff really hard lately, and I like his post about confirmation bias, that I referenced in another post. I've always been very perplexed that some very rigid people can also be very articulate, and that's a good explanation for it..
I left a comment in another post of his.. where he lauds science and insists it co-exists with religion.. but he said a magic word, "faith healing".. I guess that's two words.. so I pointed him to the Scientific American study we saw last month that refutes it.. I'm curious to see his response, but I doubt I'll get one..
I'm not sure yet if he's really one of those evil Jim Baker types, or if he just drank the kool-aid.. I'm not sure yet.. Looking at his picture and reading his posts, I'm thinking self-hating gay, turned delusional christophreak, with very conflicting thoughts in his head..
It's kind of interesting to tweak them.
I've left a comment for the priest, but he's got comment approvals turned on now, so we'll see if he allows it. I tried to be a bit more respectful than Tom comes off, but I still tried to drill home the same point.
We'll see how it turns out.
Steve.
Not sure how I was disrespectful..
Bunch of god damn RL carebears in this world..
Hell.. I've been debating linking to him from TDA and sick the masses on him.. with Darvon leading the way..
BOOM! blog delete..
Respectful to his beliefs I guess. I'm more for allowing people to believe whatever crazy thing they want so long as it doesn't interfere with the laws and general goings on of the general populace.
Where your built up hostility towards them tends to lend to a very combative type tone when you talk to people you disagree with.
Not saying everything you said wasn't right, just that because of the fact that people take your tone and focus on it, that they miss the actual meat of the argument all together.
Is that your fault? No.
However, you'll find fewer debaters because they feel they are being mocked and won’t focus on what you are trying to say.
This is exactly what makes your style of writing so compelling. Your aggressive style of questioning and reason frightens people and when people feel abused the curl up with their beliefs and say "leave me alone" which just further demonstrates their inability to question their own beliefs.
As you pointed out, Scott Adams has nailed it with the Confirmation Bias. It's really a person's inability to question what he believes in, especially when one has put his whole life into believing something.
Steve.
haha, I threw in a few compliments to soften the blow, but you found the meat of the argument pretty well. :)
Steve.
While I was reading your reply to the priest I was thinking to myself, "man, I can't believe he is being this nice. I've never seen him this nice before."
The priest should be happy he got restrained Tom, not flipping-out angry Tom.
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