The un-Conservative

This is good and deserves it's own Tom's Shake & Bake treatment;

Conservative Chic said...
I truly laughed out loud at the whole husband scenario, not even close. He is pretty close to the same mind set as I am. No gun waving, nor war mongering hubby here.

That's fortunate.. I still think a lot of women are in semi-abusive relationships where political ideology is a dangerous situation.

It is interesting that you brought this subject up because I've been having a discussion with someone regarding my beliefs and I'm finding them to be all over the map. I've been reading articles.... and to tell you the truth, I don't know where I stand. A "conservative liberal" or a "liberal conservative?" I don't fit the classic example of anything.

You're a Liberal.. and it has to be proven one issue at a time. You're still affected by what the meaning of "Liberal" has been portrayed as. I used to be a fairly conservative guy, but political ideologies shift over time. It's not that I'm becoming more Liberal the older I get. It's just that the definitions of political ideology shift.

A lot of older Conservatives have become Liberals, and a lot of older Liberals have become.. Neo-Conservatives.

Do read the Wiki for an explanation of that movement. It's important.

Quite a few of these Neo-Cons, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Richard Perle, etc., were directly responsible for the debacle of the Iraq war and the horrors it unleashed.

I like tradition and consider myself patriotic. It bothers me when people try and change the Pledge of Allegiance. Or National Anthem. They have meaning to me and are a sense of pride.

Conservatives don't own "tradition". They trample it.

Case in point.. the Pledge of Allegiance. I suppose you were horrified when the religious Conservatives hacked the Pledge to pieces and inserted the words "under God" into it in 1954? I'm guessing that since you are so bothered that people changed it, you'd support the movement to change it back to what it was, pre-1954? After all, that's the traditional wording.

The Pledge is also a weapon of authoritarian control. It is a socialist symbolic act.

Most Americans generally have no idea what the Pledge is, where it came from, what's happened to it.. and why it's a really awful tool of a totalitarian state. Please do read the Wiki.

Francis Bellamy, the original writer of the pledge and a Christian Socialist, said that the purpose of it was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue. Libertarians object because they believe that swearing any kind of loyalty oath to the state is a form of Socialism,[4] which is completely inconsistent with the open and liberal society the United States is supposed to be.

Isn't it odd that Libertarians are now much more at home in the Liberal ideology? Conservatism in the United States is now an authoritarian cult - with large doses of freak Christianity. Doug Gibbs is a perfect example of it's foot soldiers.

The problem that you have, Jennifer, is that you expect "respect" and "loyalty" to be demonstrated by rituals. It's the same with religion, and it's silly rituals. Liberals are extremely loyal and respect our home nation, but we are not unthinking slaves who are afraid to voice our criticisms. We find the idea that you must "pledge loyalty" to be repugnant to what our nation stands for. It is given freely, or not at all.

We believe you can criticize this country freely, and forcefully, and we respect everyone's right to dissent. We even think the dissenting views should be considered with an open mind.

If love of country is not earned by the country, it is not deserved. We would defend anyone's right to hate this nation, because if we do not, then this is not a free nation. Expecting citizens to "pledge loyalty" and act, through rituals, to demonstrate that loyalty is exactly how national horrors of genocide and war happen.

Liberals also respect the right of any citizen to mistreat the American flag in any way that they choose. It is, after all, a piece of cloth. The symbolism of the act is the very essence of what it means to be an American.. free.. independent.. uncontrolled.. and welcome to live their life the way they see fit. That's the Libertarianism of Liberalism.

You might think the person is a jackass for doing it.. I might even think that.. but they damn sure have the right to do it, because if they don't, then we are just a goose-step away from strapping on our jackboots and giving up our individuality and basic freedoms.

I would also point out that the Federal government is not "America". The government is simply a political ideology and tool, working the levers of power. It does not represent the history and traditions of this nation. Clearly respect is given, and criticism is the right and duty of every citizen.

By the way.... because you're such a traditionalist.. I expect you want "In God We Trust" taken off our currency, because it was added in 1957? Clearly that is a violation of American traditions.

"So help me God" was added as a suffix to the oaths of office for federal justices and judges in the 1950's as well. Because you are such a traditionalist, I expect you support removing those words from oaths.. including that of the US Presidency?

What you think is "Conservative" and "tradition" is anything but, because you were never made aware of the factual truth that is out there for all to see. The truth is, religious Conservatives have been assaulting the traditions of this nation for 200 years. If you actually do respect the traditions and intent of the founders of this nation, then you're a Liberal and support booting out all the religious nutbaggery that has been added in the last 60 years.

The multicultural movement sometimes takes away from being an “American“. If you live in America, you are not an Asian American or an African American, you are simply an American period. Be proud of who you are, I certainly am, but I consider myself an American first and a German/Norwegian/Czech second.

It "takes being an American away" from who? You? You're less an American because of somebody else's behavior?

Ohh.. I get it.. you want other people to behave differently. That's a religious trait.

Still, the idea of "multi-culturalism" is a red herring. This nation was built by immigrants. It's always been that way. It's our tradition that we welcome others here, and add to the nation's culture.

Immigration has been strongest from various nations. In New York, Italians setup their own neighborhoods, as did the Irish. They were very Italian, and very Irish, and to this day there are celebrations of heritage, particularly in New York.

Over time, they assimilated in to the larger nation, gaining from it, and adding to it. Many people still honor and celebrate the traditions and heritage of their ancestral homes. This is a good thing, and adds to the greater nation around us.

My father's family was part of that east coast Irish. My mother's family was part of that east coast Italian. I'm a half-breed.. Irish/Italian.. and an American. I know the origin of the Irish side.. It was originally English, and spread to Europe during the wars in the middle ages.. and finally to here.

The word "multi-culturalism" is a code for "I hate the dirty Mexicans". It's the exact same words that were used by other Americans of earlier times, describing the "dirty Irish".. or the "dirty Italians".. or the "dirty Chinese", etc. The fear mongering is exactly the same.

The truth of the matter is.. Mexicans are just immigrants the same as any other.. and they'll assimilate the same as every other ethnic group. They are no better, and no worse, than any other group that came here to find a better life for their families. It's all exactly the same.

From an ideological standpoint, Conservatism always has to have a target.. just like religion. There must be something to point the finger at. Right now, it's the Mexicans and the homos with some "Muslim" thrown in when they need to scare somebody.

This is because "Conservatism", on the whole, is a very weak ideology. Go read 1984 (it can be found online and really isn't that big), or just read the wiki on "Two Minutes Hate", for an explanation on why Conservative ideology has to have a target.

Muslims are a good target now as well.. This is why you see people like Doug insisting there is a "holy war" raging across the world, and we're all going to die any moment now.

Liberals reject that nonsense.

I am pro-life, which I know isn’t particularly “liberal” but I value the sanctity of life.

It's a complex issue. Individuals have their own view, but what ultimately matters is the law.

Liberals respect the wide variety of view points. If abortion is never what you, personally, want, that's great for you. I have no say in your decision. If somebody else feels they need an abortion, I think we offer them understanding and not condemnation to do what they feel they must, without imposing my own view on them.

When the law gets involved, that's when bad things happen. That's when a young woman turns to back alley quacks who do more harm than good.

So.. if you're going to pass a law, what are the definitions? Nobody can have a 2nd or 3rd trimester abortion? Nobody can abort a deformed fetus? Nobody can abort in the case of incest or rape? Nobody can abort for the health of the mother?

The Conservatives that want to over-turn Roe v. Wade think they know the answers to those questions, and they think they can pass a law that makes sense to them, taking into account all those various issues.

But they can't.. and nobody really agrees anyway.. and it ends up an attempt to legislate morality, and that will always fail. Always..

I am against affirmative action. Years ago it was needed but I think that in today’s society everyone is equal regarding race. I think it sucks that my father didn’t get a promotion that was deserved because he wasn’t black and was told that directly.

It might surprise you to know that Barack Obama agrees with you on that. Most Liberals agree as well. Quotas served a useful purpose at one time, but this country has become such a jumble of different races that it's a useless qualifier.

However, we do recognize that there are a lot of racist and bigoted assholes out there, so laws protecting minorities from discrimination (in hiring, promotions, etc.) are still a good thing.

I think that the poor/disabled need help because not everybody is privileged or wealthy enough to afford a good education and a great job. I understand that more than many because being disabled isn’t easy and it certainly is not by choice.

That's text book Liberalism.

I find it ironic that most times, Conservatives only understand that when they are the ones that find themselves needing some sort of help.

I've been asking for months.. maybe years.. for Doug to actually say what he means when he rails against "hand outs" and "government entitlements". Most conservatives (especially Doug) speak in vague generalities, because they know they'll just stick a foot in their mouth if they try and be specific.

Americans like Social Security, and Medi-Care.. and understand the utility of Medi-Caid and programs like food stamps.

The United States is the most prosperous nation in the history of the world, yet Conservatism truly is a "survival of the fittest" ideology. Conservatives disdain the poor, and the weak, and the helpless, and the struggling, and the hungry, and the homeless... which.. you know.. I find odd because they've usually got their head up Jesus' ass, and the literary character Jesus was very pro-poor.

I feel we need to protect ourselves from terrorism diligently and if we happen to search anyone of Arab decent that looks suspicious we should have every right to, offended or not!

That's useless and baseless fear mongering.

Tim McVeigh was "white". You're "white". They should strip-search you every time you enter the country?

"Security" is an illusion. You just want to "feel safe", so you don't lose your mind constantly worrying. Certainly, our government should do what it can to stop the bad guys, but you're only alive right now by chance. There is no stopping determined attackers.

Conservatism only goes so far as to "stop the bad guy". Liberals know that's a short sighted and simplistic solution. Until you address the reason somebody wants to hurt you, you're not really going to be out of danger.

Conservatism is also a paranoid ideology. oh noes.. Muhammad is going to rise up in the streets and kill us alll!!!! <<---- which is what Doug actually claimed. I'm so not kidding.

I am against immigration! This is an issue where there is no gray. It is pure black and white. Come into this country legally or don’t come in at all!

I think you meant "illegal immigration"... or is that a Freudian slip?

Umm.. right.. so do Liberals.. That's why we need to expand the number of legal immigrants. We have no desire for an open border, or allowing anyone in just-because.

Liberals also think it's a bad idea to deport the parents of US citizens and split up families.

I feel gays deserve all the same rights as straight people do. Yes, I do know that is definitely a “liberal” view.

Of course it is.. Liberalism is about equality and the basic dignity of all human beings. That comes before religion as well.

The death penalty is an issue I struggle with because I feel that someone that murders and rapes a 12 year old child should be punished to the max, but at the same time, I don’t feel it is my right to play God with their life.

You want the emotional venting of vengeance. That is not a virtue, and the god you claim to worship would be disappointed I think.

It simple really. There's no benefit from killing prisoners. It costs more, and it doesn't "protect" any better than life without parole. Truly, a society is reflected in how it treats it's prisoners, and the United States has more citizens incarcerated than any nation on this planet - and that includes regimes such as China, Iran and N. Korea.

It is our national disgrace.

I am not going to get into health care, because I don’t have any answers in that regard. What we have now is obviously not working and I don’t know if anyone really has the right answer in finding a way to change that.

You should get into health care because it's a major issue. I've worked in the field my entire life and consider myself something of an expert on it.

It's not difficult to look at a proposal and evaluate whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm not going to go into specifics right now (I've done that in detail many times in the past), but the basic gist is to move the payer side under government control.

Fact is, more than 50% of all health care in the United States is paid for by the government, through Medi-Care, Medi-Caid, VA and DoD. We can expand that to 100%, remove the over-head of the insurance companies and their profit margins, and cover everyone for less.

Remember.. over 30 million Americans have no health care benefits. We're supposed to be the greatest nation in the world? Burying your head in the sand is chickenshit.

The conservative plan? Change nothing.

You know my beliefs regarding religion, which I hold strongly too.

I still want to know if you believe in "many paths" to heaven and God?

So in a nutshell, if you could call it that, there are my beliefs set in front of you. I’m really interested in your point of view regarding everything I just wrote, and I admit to a curiosity to see where you think I fit in. As I said before, I don’t really think I fit into a certain category not even a typical conservative, anymore.

Look.. I don't call myself a Liberal because I just think it would be fun. It's all about policy. I can make a superior argument about policy than any Conservative on any issue where there is a difference of viewpoint. It's really that simple.

That's how I can claim that most people are Liberals, even if they don't know it yet. Most people call themselves "Conservative" for the reason that you did. Because of what they thought it represents, not what it actually does represent.

You can take some home-maker in Kansas, who's white with 3 kids and a working class husband and ask her if she's Liberal or Conservative. More than likely, she's Conservative.

Why?

It's because of the perception of Liberals as dirty fucking hippies living in San Francisco, having their orgies and corrupting children.

In other words.. everything about why people are Conservative has absolutely nothing to do with policy, and everything to do with perception. This is why Liberalism is making a rebound in this nation. Once the debate shifts to policy, Liberalism always wins.. always.

No longer are people restricted to dead-tree newspapers and 3 channels on the teevee. Ideas and information are everywhere, ready to be used.. and the more a person knows.. the more they're Liberal.


/note

I'm not criticizing orgies.. just using it as a metaphor.

/update

Paul Krugman explains the politics of character, here. It's a good explanaion of why liars like Doug do what they do. It's all they have.

It's obvious most Americans really aren't interested in the sort of thing I wrote above. There are some real policy wonks out there, but most simply buy into the broad themes.

The problem with America is the Americans.